Mormonism 101 with Lynn Wilder: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Mormonism 101 with Lynn Wilder: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Mormon Beliefs Video:
Mormonism teaches that trillions of planets scattered throughout the cosmos are ruled by countless gods who once were human like us. They say that long ago on one of these planets to an unidentified god in one of his goddess wives, a spirit child named Elohim was conceived. This spirit child was later born to human parents who gave him a physical body. Through obedience to Mormon teaching and death and resurrection, he proved himself worthy and was elevated to godhood as his father before him. Mormons believe that Elohim is their Heavenly Father and that he lives with his mini goddess wives on a planet near a mysterious star called Colon. Here, the God of Mormonism and his wives, through endless celestial sex, produced billions of spirit children to decide their destiny. The head of the Mormon gods called a great heavenly council meeting. Both of Elohim’s eldest sons were there, Lucifer and his brother Jesus. A plan was presented to build Planet Earth, where the spirit children would be sent to take on mortal bodies and learn good from evil. Lucifer stood and made his bid for becoming savior of this new world. Warning the glory for himself, he planned to force everyone to become gods opposing the idea. The Mormon Jesus suggested giving Man his freedom of choice as on other planets. The vote that followed approved the proposal of the Mormon Jesus who had become savior of the planet Earth. Enraged Lucifer, cunningly convinced one third of the spirits destined for Earth to fight with him and revolt.

Mormon Beliefs Video:
Thus, Lucifer became the devil and his followers, the demons sent to this world. They would forever be denied bodies of flesh and bone. Those who remain neutral in the battle were cursed to be born with black skin. This is the Mormon explanation for the Negro race. The spirits that fought most valiantly against Lucifer would be born into Mormon families on planet Earth. These would be the lighter skinned people or white and delightsome as the Book of Mormon describes them. Early Mormon prophets taught that Elohim and one of his goddess wives came to earth as Adam and Eve to start the human race. Thousands of years later, Elohim in human form, once again journeyed to Earth from the star base Kolob, this time to have sex with the Virgin Mary in order to provide Jesus with a physical body. After Jesus Christ grew to manhood, he took at least three wives, Mary, Martha and Mary Magdalene. Through these wives, the Mormon Jesus, for whom Joseph Smith claimed direct descent, supposedly fathered a number of children before he was crucified. According to the Book of Mormon, after his resurrection, Jesus came to the Americas to preach to the Indians who the Mormons believe are really Israelites. Thus, the Jesus of Mormonism established his church in the Americas, as he had in Palestine. By the year 421 AD, the dark skinned Indian Israelites known as Lamanites, had destroyed all of the white Nephites in a number of great battles.

Mormon Beliefs Video:
The Nephites records were supposedly written on Golden Plates and buried by Moroni, the last living Nephite in the Hill. Cumorah. 1400 years later, a young treasure seeker named Joseph Smith, who was known for his tall tales, claimed to have uncovered these same gold plates near his home in upstate New York. He is now honored by Mormons as a prophet because he claimed to have had visions from the spirit world in which he was commanded to organize the Mormon Church because all Christian creeds were an abomination. It was Joseph Smith who originated most of these peculiar doctrines which millions today believe to be true. By maintaining a rigid code of financial and moral requirements and through performing secret temple rituals for themselves and the dead. The Latter day Saints hoped to prove their worthiness and thus become gods. The Mormons teach that everyone must stand at the final judgment before Joseph Smith, the Mormon Jesus and Elohim. Those Mormons who were sealed in the eternal marriage ceremony expect to become polygamous gods in the celestial kingdom, rule over other planets and spawn new families throughout eternity. The Mormons thank God for Joseph Smith, who claimed that he had done more for us than any other man, including Jesus Christ. The Mormons believe that he died as a martyr. Shed his blood for us so that we, too, may become gods.

Ken McMullen:
Your unique experience. And your family’s experience. I’m throwing enthralled with because if I feel when I talk to people as far as Mormonism goes, they may not even know it’s the Church of Latter-day Saints, Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They see the commercials; they see a building. It’s some kind of Christian. But then they’ve heard some things or the histories a little odd. They’re not sure. When I was growing up, Mormonism and the Osmonds were the same thing to me in the 70 seconds when I was little, I just knew the the Osmonds were Mormon. I don’t know why that always came up, maybe from my family, but they were always on TV. The Donny and Ratio. Then you had all those brothers and the one sister singing and dancing and. Didn’t even really know what Mormon meant at the time. I do now. And. I don’t point the finger. I have a heart, really, for all the people that believe. They are doing the right thing. That they are believing the right thing. And. Are living like. The Latter day Saints for the most part, nice content, moral lives and close knit families and and have systems set up where they send people out to help join them so they can, you know, be with God as well. What makes me super angry? Is the system. Or who set it up or somebody at the top has to know it’s not true because somebody is making a lot of money, frankly, and off like in that particular religion, things that have been proven over and over to not really hold water when it comes down to history and doctrine. So that’s why I really want to hear from people like you that are how does it happen that you end up in. A church with the sincerest of meanings. And like I’ve listened to your son’s book on tape as well. Couldn’t be more sincere and following Jesus, living out his faith with God and at some point comes to a reason, a belief that this wasn’t what I thought it was my entire life.

Lynn Wilder:
Your confusion about all of this is very typical with Christians because Mormon behavior appears to be so Christian fruit like then Christians want to leave them alone, right? You would you would be surprised if I told you who this was. But this is a very well known Christian that I had dinner with one night. And he was confused about this very thing, in fact.

Ken McMullen:
Ooh.

Lynn Wilder:
Somebody interviewed me recently and said, Glenn Beck’s a good friend of mine. I just don’t get right how he’s not within the body. So I’m talking to this famous Christian and he’s asking me this same question, and he wants to know. So where would you put his lawn? Where would you put Hindu things? Where would you put Mormon is you know how close he puts up in the center of the table and said, So how close are these? Here’s a salt and pepper shaker. Tell me where you’d put things. I put Mormonism right on the edge of the table, farthest away from Christianity, he said. That doesn’t make any sense to me. It looks to me like it would be the closest to me. This is the most horrific thing to present a false Christ and a false gospel and take people whose hearts are to have Jesus and to march them off to a place where salvation cannot come to them, but have them think that salvation comes to them that way. To me, that’s the greatest deception.

Ken McMullen:
Yeah, that’s what gets my blood boiling is it’s one thing if you tell people, This is what our group believes, would you like to be a part of it? With things like Mormonism. It should not be Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. It should be Joseph Smith of Latter Day Saints or Brigham Young of Latter day Saints. And they should exclude the New Testament as part of their four books. They should make it three. Be. And you know as well as I do that even recently, it looks like they’re trying to Jesus in the ceremonies and things. But that’s all deceptive. You know it not being the same guys and from coming growing up in a Protestant background. There’s an easy thinking of, well, if you don’t understand Mormonism, it says Jesus. And they tell us about God and they use the same words. So, you know, people believe it a little differently. Maybe they’re a little off, but we’re not really supposed to judge. But it is. Even the word Christian. It’s just not the same religion in any sense of the word.

Lynn Wilder:
No. In fact, that’s that worst deception again. You’re using words right out of the Bible. But but not one of those religious words between Mormonism and biblical faith mean the same thing. Mormon grace is not Christian grace. Heaven is not heaven. Temples aren’t. Aren’t temples. Salvation is not salvation. Eternal life. None of it is the same. And so that’s part of the great deception, is using the same words and that Christians hearing them and assuming all they spend, they’re saved by grace. Right? Here’s the definition of Mormon grace. According to the Mormon Encyclopedia, it’s an enabling power that God gives to you so that you can live the commandments so that you can get yourself there. Right? That is not biblical grace. In fact, these things are opposites. They’re not even compatible. Does it matter? Well, Jesus warns himself in Matthew 24 that the false Christs. Who are they after? I often ask Christians, Who are they after? They don’t know. Who are they after? They’re after the very elect. These are people who would try to operate within the body of Christ if they can, that they might march people off in the wrong direction. And Mormonism is just one of the best deceptive organizations that do this. So but the rank and file people and those wonderful missionaries that come to your door, they’re not aware that you have a different gospel. They’re not aware that they’re presenting something that’s not the same as yours. They just believe what their leaders from the top tell them. So you’re exactly right. You have these wonderful people with a heart for Jesus who believe that they have the way to salvation. But. But they don’t. Right. And they need to know what you what you know about Jesus. The Jesus they know is a false Christ. He’s a brother of Satan. That’s not the Jesus of the Bible.

Ken McMullen:
Yeah, One of the saddest things. In your son Micah’s book. I’m almost done listening. I buy the books and then I listen to them when I’m driving to work. But I’m almost done with the audio version. Really, one of the saddest things I’ve heard on it is him saying more often than not how poorly he was treated or the missed opportunities by Christians while he was sharing the faith. And that’s really sad because. In your case, like Micah, put a name on the a person on a bike with a tie and the, you know, that comes to your door in twos. You know, these are human beings, like you said, that think they know the truth. And you’re going to let him leave? Not at least hearing what? The Christians believe is the truth. And. I view Mormonism kind of like sometimes I drink a lot of protein drinks, but I drink one called, you know, muscle milk. Have you seen that one? So you drink muscle milk. But right on the front cover is a disclaimer at the bottom because by law they have to say there’s no dairy or milk in this product.

Ken McMullen:
Where with religions. So basically you can call anything, anything. So you can call something muscle milk even if it has zero milk in it. But we have the FDA who says, will you at least have to tell people that in religion you can say whatever you want? But there’s nobody making a disclaimer because how you prove faith one for another. So you can say those religions of Jesus and it’s the truth, but there’s nobody saying you may or may not believe in Christianity. But this Jesus and this Christian, what call yourselves Christian, is not the Christianity presented or the Jesus presented in the New Testament. And I think we owe, like these young men and ladies when they come to our door to in a loving way, take a few minutes, hear what they have to say. And in a loving way respond and say. As they show the Book of Mormon. You know, they open scriptures and say, well, here’s how I view. And it looks like that’s what happened to your son. And he didn’t take it well, but it planted a seed.

Lynn Wilder:
So 30 years I was in Mormonism. Can you’re making kind of the bottom line important point here. 30 years. I had Christian friends, I had Christian neighbors, I had Christian family. And I cannot recall for you one time that a Christian ever stepped into a conversation with me about what it was specifically I believed about Jesus or how I got reconciled to a holy God. None of those kind of conversations. And once Micah challenged me to read the Bible, I realized this is not Mormonism. I went face down, gave my life to Jesus. I went through this angry stage. Why didn’t anybody tell me I was marching off to hell and nobody cared enough to tell me, right? Why don’t you tell me you’re so afraid of of stepping into a conversation that might put a rift in our relationship. Right? So you weren’t going to tell me These things are important? Yeah. So I suppose. What? God does is raises up people like us who come from those false places that we might have these testimonies to tell these stories, both to warn Christians not to go there, but also to help Mormons come to faith in Christ. And we’ve seen hundreds making lots of salvations over the years. God is on the move with Mormons, I have no doubt. So, you know, people’s kind most everybody’s aware that in Islam people are having dreams and coming to Jesus. And he appears to be pulling a remnant out of the Muslims. They I believe the same thing is going on in Mormonism. Lots of Mormons are leaving. Many are going to theism and agnosticism. Some of them come back around to Jesus, but some of them have a real heart for Jesus and they want to know this true Jesus. And so, like probably never before in Mormonism, a remnant is coming to Christ and we need an army of Christians to open their mouths and have those conversations rather than saying, Oh, they’re such nice people, I’m just going to leave them alone. Right.

Ken McMullen:
I want to hear how you’re helping pull people out of Mormonism. I didn’t want I expressed you before that. I didn’t want to spend the time with you going through all the doctrines and the history as you would be an expert to tell me, because not everybody has been through what you’ve been through and I want to hear that or do what you’re doing. Um, so I am going to have a different episode that people will listen to first and get that groundwork. But if you could, for those who haven’t heard that in a short summary for your average person who doesn’t know. Or they’re even Mormon right now. And good people, they have great families and they enjoy their church and their community. And maybe they’ve already turned it off by now because they’re hearing us say it’s not Christian. That’d be really rude and offensive. I can imagine. Yes. So so I don’t want to move on before. Could you just give a minute or two or something? A brief summary that easily states to these people what we’re talking about, that it’s not the Jesus represented in the New Testament you did with Grace, but maybe who God actually is. When you talk about Heavenly Father and Jesus and His divinity, birth, divine birth or not, and all this kind of thing.

Lynn Wilder:
I would say the basics of Christianity are who is God? Who is man and how does an evil man get reconciled to a holy God? You know, how do you get saved? Those are the basics of faith. So Mormonism believes in three separate gods. They deny the Trinity. They say there are probably millions of gods because a righteous man because can earn his way to God. So in their theology. Heavenly Father. Is on this plane of eternal progression. He earned his godhood first Jesus, then earned his godhood Heavenly Father. The Holy Ghost became a God. So you have three separate gods. They they weren’t always God. They are created beings. The Bible says we don’t worship the created. We only worship the Creator. The Bible is very clear. We have this triune God that’s Co-eternal always existed in relationship of three, always will. And they’re co-equal, right? One is not more important, the other the three of them have different roles, but. But they work together. And that is not the God of Mormonism. Mormonism has a whole different system, so you don’t have the same God, but you also don’t have the same way to be reconciled to God. In Mormonism, your salvation is pretty much all up to you. The Book of Mormon says you are saved by grace after all. You can do so like in Islam, you do all you can do. And then at the end of life, if it’s been enough, God’s grace might kick in and save you. In Mormonism, there are three separate heavens, one for Heavenly Father, the lower one for Jesus, a lower one for the Holy Ghost. And according to your works on the earth, you either get to live with one or the other and they’ll tell you that even Hitler is in the lowest kingdom. The only people that go to hell in Mormonism are apostates from the Mormon Church, particularly those of us who had been to the temple and denied the faith.

Ken McMullen:
Yeah, and I think that’s one major thing to point out, is all the denominations, Protestant, even Catholicism that would say, well, Mormons are just different. We shouldn’t judge them. They’re Christian, you know. Mormons don’t give anyone else that latitude. Right. You have to be a mormon as accepted by the Mormon Church to enter into any kind of celestial heaven. And when you mentioned Hitler, that confused people. That would be because. The baptisms of the dead?

Lynn Wilder:
Probably, yes. So be it. Mormonism is basically universal salvation. Everybody gets to one of the three heavens. The only people that really good to go to the top heaven with Heavenly Father and get eternal life or exaltation in Mormonism are Mormons that are good enough to earn a temple recommend and then go to the temple and then do good works till the end of their lives. So the only people that get to live with God, the Father. So yes, it’s a very workspace system. But but in my brain as a mormon, no one ever talked to me about workspace. I wouldn’t have put the logic together. A Christian would have to walk a mormon through. Why you having to do X, Y, and Z in order for eternal life to come to you? How that’s workspace.

Ken McMullen:
The goal is it not of most Mormons that you reach a godhood and like that God. The wolf Uncorrect was supposedly Adam who earned his way to to a god.

Lynn Wilder:
But yeah, so it started with Heavenly Father and heavenly Mother in the Pre-existence. Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother have bodies of flesh and bone. They have sex that their children are Holy Spirit children. And I never made any sense to me in Mormonism. But that’s the way it is. Then those children earn the right to come to earth and be born in a family on the earth, that they might gain a body and then begin their eternal progression toward godhood. Although I never believed a woman could become a god in the temple. It told me in Mormon temple that I could be a queen and a priestess to my husband. So in the next life, if he were righteous enough, yes, he would earn his own world. Don’t say planet. They always say, Well, we don’t believe that. Right? Well, their scriptures say world. So that’s a it’s almost a trick from their end, right? They do believe that you can be married forever and have your own world. But they also believe that in order to people that world with these little spirit, children that need to come to the bodies to be born on that earth, that that the husband is going to have to have multiple righteous wives. So basically, the the job of a woman in the next life is to continue to have children, children, children, children, children and people. A world enjoy that. I mean, I loved being a mom, and that would be a bit much. A little much.

Ken McMullen:
So this may be an obvious answer to the question, but if you were presented with that’s just to me like a skim of what their doctrines and beliefs are. Would you then have continued conversations with the two young men at your door and end up living a life in Mormonism? As it knows. Right. As opposed to. Using biblical terms and just saying things they feel are the norm in culture, even to the Christian ears. That’s what makes me angry.

Lynn Wilder:
Yes. And they actually target nominal Christians. I don’t know that they would know that term, but it’s people who have heard of Jesus and know there’s a Bible. Right. This was my husband and myself when Mormon missionaries knocked on our door at age 24. Oh, yeah, we’ve heard of prophets. Yeah. Mike grew up Baptist, I grew up Presbyterian. We all went to church. But we we didn’t read our Bible. And I couldn’t have told you how you got saved. Right? But I’d heard words like prophets and Jesus and cross and salvation and those kind of things. Mormonism. The Mormon missionaries told us they had the fullness of the truth. The Bible was just part of the truth and that we needed to add to that. Well, if you don’t know anything about false Christs or anything that Paul warned about over and over and over and over in the in the New Testament. Then you’re in the same situation as we are. So 83% of people that join Mormonism come out of nominal Christianity. So it’s people that were kind of raised cultural Christian, but they they don’t know what the Bible says.

Ken McMullen:
When I think about what this isn’t funny, but if anything was funny, this would be it, right? Every time I think about Mormonism, I think about the scripture that says even if an angel comes to you and preaches a different gospel, let him be eternally damned or something to that effect. And then Mormonism is literally based on a story. Of an angel coming and preaching a different gospel. You know, and that shouldn’t fool one single Christian. But like you say, they don’t know the Bible and that’s on us.

Lynn Wilder:
Did not know the Bible. So when Micah got saved on his Mormon mission. Begged his parents to read the Bible. I opened it to the Book of John and the first. First verse I ran sat in The beginning was the word. I’m like, I think that’s Jesus. And the word was with God and the word was God. And I went, Jesus wasn’t God from the beginning. He earned his God. And I, I mean, all through now the Bible, it contradicts Mormon scripture. But when I was blind and I was Mormon and before regeneration came to me, I didn’t see these conflicts until God was ready, ready to call me. Right. It says in John 644 I remember reading Jesus saying, No one comes to me unless the father who sent me draws him. I remember thinking, I think I’m being drawn. This is like, you know, we’re just being sucked in. There is a time when those who are his and recognize his voice will be called, and it is in his perfect time and his perfect way, but also for his purposes. That according to First Timothy one, eight and nine. Were there before the ages began. I was blown away to think that he called me to a holy calling, not because of my works, but because of his own purpose and grace. And that all of this was known before the ages began. He knew every day of my life before it began. So the idea. Is the Jesus is real. You have to find the right Jesus and you have to know the right way to salvation. When you give your life and make him your master. The Holy Spirit enters you. Everything changes and your purpose begins. And that was very real for me.

Ken McMullen:
That’s the that’s what I started doing this podcast. I wanted to be able to talk about the reality, not the religion, but the reality. I was calling it Divine Encounters before at least a subtitle because. Just that born again experience having the spirit in your life, everyone’s testimony that that moment is very similar in that my eyes were opened. I could see light and dark. I could see truth and falsehood. The birds were chirping. They didn’t know the grass was so green they felt more at rest. Oh, there’s a. All is well with my soul song, you know, kind of resonates with you whether you know the song or not and where before you’re just working. Religion’s all about working and you’ll and you’re always working to attain something unobtainable. There’s that born again experience where the Holy Spirit makes you a new. Creation a phrase. Mormonism. There seems to be I would call it a counterfeit to that, and that they are bold enough to say when they’re trying to. Convert you and they get you far enough and they’ve told you that what they want you to know about the religion. To ask God if this is true. And if it is, you’ll have some kind of burning in your puzzle. And I believe, if I recall from your book, maybe even like I could be wrong about that, but you would say, yes, you had that experience. Is that correct? And if so, what are they getting at? Or is it a mental you just come to a peace that this seems true, or do you kind of a have a supernatural experience? And if so, how do you reflect on that?

Lynn Wilder:
I’m sure it’s different for other people, but when I was, I expected those kind of wacky spiritual experiences. I did not know that Satan could counterfeit them. I had no idea. No one told me that. So here’s an example. When I was getting my patriarchal blessing and Mormonism, which is kind of like telling your future, this patriarch, the Mormon patriarch, lays his hands on your head and tells you what your future will be and then warns you at the end. If you don’t look righteously, it won’t come to pass. Well, you know, let’s see. It’s all on you. But when that patriarch laid his hands on my head, I felt very real. Electricity go from the top of my head to the tip of my toes and I knew Mormonism was true because I’d had this profound feeling experience. Right, That connected me to Mormonism. Lots of Mormons have these kind of experiences. And then when they get to rethink all of this, that’s one of the things they really have to struggle with. I actually went back through all those kind of spiritual experiences in Mormonism and and said, okay, this one might have been from the real God. This one definitely wasn’t this one. You know, I had to kind of catalog those kind of things. Here’s how I see it now. It’s not that Christian faith doesn’t have those profound spiritual experiences because you do and they’re very real. But in Christian faith you have both logic, reason, science and emotion. So you have both evidence and emotion and the emotion is supposed to be checked with the word. All of that emotionalism can come from Satan or it can come from God. If it lines up with the Bible, it’s probably God.

Lynn Wilder:
If it doesn’t line up, you better run. And I wasn’t familiar with that. And to me, that’s a bigger faith, right? God has 30,000 archaeological deeds for the Old Testament alone. The Book of Mormon doesn’t have one, right? There are no original manuscripts in Mormonism. There is no prophecy evidence. In fact, there are 11 prophecies that Joseph Smith made that are still in their scriptures that didn’t come through true and never will because those people are dead. So but as a mormon, I didn’t know what the Bible offered. No Christian ever told me how awesome the Bible was. That’s huge for a Mormons, right? They don’t trust the Bible. Here’s how they see it. Your your Christian and all you have is a Bible in your Bibles, corrupt. And you can’t really tell when it’s true and when it is true. Of course, they don’t tell you that on the doorstep, but you’ll learn that later in Mormonism. Then they add the Book of Mormon to it, which is perfect, and the Doctrine and Covenants, which is perfect, and the pearl of great price, which is perfect because they came directly from Jesus Christ to Joseph Smith and the other Mormon prophets. So can you see how Christians are kind of lessers? They just have a little of the truth and you and the Bible is corrupt, but Mormons have the fullness of the truth, they call it. So they don’t see you though, as opposites. You are opposites. You are, but they see you as just people that need more added to. That’s that’s what they teach their Mormon missionaries to teach the Christian people. And a lot of people are open to that. Right. What more spirituality.

Ken McMullen:
That’s the thing. Spirituality is accepted, if not even embraced by culture. And there are experiences. And while that it must be real and true and it’s interesting and it’s intriguing. But it scares the Protestant churches away so much because there is a demonic reality that they don’t allow the Holy Spirit reality to move very well in most places. They stifle that, in my opinion. But I think I think that’s changing.

Lynn Wilder:
Well and and false. I certainly have a demonic root right. If they are Antichrist, there really is this this unseen world and there really is a battle going on. And I can tell you some some really interesting experiences I’ve had trying to help people out of Mormonism where where they have some of these kind of stronghold experiences where they can’t seem to get extricated. Actually, two years ago, I had one of the most important, interesting phone calls from a Christian psychologist who’d spent his entire life helping people out of cults like Mormonism. I apologize. Mormons if that if that world if that word is offensive. But this this was what he said to me. He wanted to know from me why it’s so hard to extricate Mormons. He said, I’ve worked with Mormons that five years, ten years down the road still have these strongholds of things that they believe from Mormonism they can’t seem to let go. And he said, of all the different groups that I work with, this one seems to be tough. I mean, people are really connected to it.

Ken McMullen:
Yeah. You mentioned cults. It can be a very offensive word. I mean, it’s defined so many ways. If you define it as a belief system so strong, you would kill for or allowed yourself to be killed for, then christianities are called. So yeah, so I take it down to oh, in Mormonism, it seems odd to call it a cult because it’s so large and influential where you think of cults as maybe worse, the fundamentals that are on the outskirts and you’re getting open polygamy and there’s child abuse and there’s different things going on. Well, that’s cultish on the outskirts of Mormonism, but not Mormonism itself. But I judge it by this is once again helps Christians to know their scripture is. And I had this issue when Romney was running for president is what’s he going to vote for? Probably principles I believe in, you know, family and some conservative issues. What do you do? Because on the do I care so much about what their faith is? I voted for people that weren’t Christian. It’s not about that. You know, I vote for my how are they going to vote? They had a real struggle. I’m glad they didn’t have to make the decision because. Scripture says that. Any teaching that is brought that doesn’t accept as Jesus is God in the flesh basically is a doctrine. Demons. A doctrine that’s a religious belief. I define that as a cult. And. Mormonism takes man as God in the flesh, Not God is coming as man in the flesh. You know, it’s the opposite. So that to me defines it as demonic activity, demonically written. And even with Joseph Smith, not to dig into the history of it started with cultic. Ways of doing things and seeker stones and it’s from its roots has had a mystic. Up groundwork to it. A framework to it.

Lynn Wilder:
Almost like Greek mythology.

Ken McMullen:
Yeah, for sure. So let’s hear some of your stories. How do you. Without offending people like we probably just did using words like call too, you know, or be saying it’s a doctor to demons. But how do you approach people that, like I said, you know, I you know, more than me, but I know some people that are great. Love to hang out with and have a coffee. The nice families couldn’t be nicer. People in society. Moral, upstanding citizens. But then you really care about. That they think this is truth. How how does your ministry approach it or what do you do?

Lynn Wilder:
I don’t feel like God has necessarily sent our ministry to what we call tbms true believing Mormons who are very dug into their faith. At least My husband and I work mostly with people who are already questioning their Mormon faith and they there they want to explore biblical Christianity as an option. So that’s who we hear from and that’s who comes to us. And so these are people with a heart for Jesus, but they’ve decided that they don’t like the fact that Joseph Smith married a 14 year old and 11 of the. Women he married were already married when he married them. Those kind of things. When they find out those kind of things, they’re kind of done with Mormonism, but they still have a heart for Jesus. And many Mormons who find out those things go to hard core atheism. They become very angry. They one hit the church with lawsuits. I only see healing happen when they come to know Jesus. They come to know understand forgiveness and mercy and grace and realize that their life has a purpose, you know, and that Jesus is real. It one of the hardest things for the people that we work with is to convince them that God loves them enough, right? That God, the Father would call them, that Jesus would have a purpose for the life, that someone would love them that much.

Lynn Wilder:
It’s really hard for Mormons to for many Mormons that I work with, to take that in as far as Mormons that are dug in, that are friends or that are colleagues that you work with, we recommend a relationship having people for dinner, but the best thing is to get Mormons into the Bible. If if you have a Bible study in your home and you have Mormon neighbors, why not say to them, you know, we have this in common, let’s let’s study the Bible. You don’t have to hit people over the head with the differences. If you can get them into the word the Holy Ghost, there’s this great power in the word. The Holy Spirit works through the word and reading it and then realizing it that it’s opposite Mormonism drives you to a point of decision. Either this is true or this is true, or either of these are true. Right? But they’re not the same. And it’s wonderful. They can discover that on their own by being in the word.

Ken McMullen:
When I was in my teenage and late teenage years, if I coming home from school and I saw in my neighborhood, I would hunt them down in case I missed them at my door. I’m so sorry if nobody answered and I’d want to talk to them, but I probably wasn’t the best. I was eager, but I was probably ready to point out differences or I was ready to as opposed to just. A starting to build a rapport and some respect for what they’re doing. And not just. Come across as you’re wrong. And here’s you know, I had right motives, but I would handle myself differently.

Lynn Wilder:
Yeah, and here’s why that doesn’t work. The Book of Mormon says contention is of the devil. So if you present to them really hard core something that’s opposite of what they believe, their brain just goes, devil, devil, devil, shut it off. And if you do too much of that kind of confrontational stuff, you’ll drive them right to their testimony. I know the church is true. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet. But then, you know, you’ve shut the door to any kind of back and forth conversation. So all we say you treat these people with respect and and totally if you have the missionaries and let them teach you and then use questions, strategic questions. And and what we like to do is present a conundrum to them. Well, that’s you tell me that after the last of the 12 apostles died, the church that Jesus set up went into a great apostasy and it didn’t come back until Joseph Smith brought it back. And, well, that confuses me because of something I think I read in the Bible that Jesus said. So I’ll take him to on this rock. I will build my church and the gates of hell won’t prevail against it. And then all I have to do is say, What do you think Jesus meant when he said that? Is that not translated correctly? Was he not aware that his church was going to fail? I mean, all I do is lay the questions out there and let the Holy Spirit stir those questions in there and hope that they’ll go back to their missionary department, open the Bible and go, Why would Jesus say something opposite of what the Mormon prophet taught me? Right? That’s the that’s my point in doing that is present scripture. That’s the exact opposite. And then treat them with respect. Let them be the masters of their own faith and ask them how. How would you reconcile the fact that Jesus said this? But the Mormon Church teaches this again, no one has to answer me, but I’m just laying that thought in your head. It’s a it’s a seed planted. Yeah.

Ken McMullen:
And back to your son, Micah’s book, Passport to Heaven. Those are the things that really struck out down to me was. Well, when he was presenting his by the people who were the most influential to him. Were the ones it seemed that listened and gave him the respect. You, Him, Elder Wilder. Yeah. And what’s your message? And sat and listened to every word and fed as much as he didn’t want to. Miko felt he owed respect back to listen to what the rebuttal was. Is offended as he was about it and felt it was wrong. It forced Micah to hear it where he probably would not have heard it. If they didn’t give him the respect to at least listen to what he had to say. It sounds so simple. Just yeah, the the respect of just listening to somebody. Just sharing that respect back and forth just seems like a simple thing to do, but so powerful.

Lynn Wilder:
And so there’s a lot to respect about Mormons, right? They’re zealous about their faith enough to talk about their faith. How many Christians do that? Right? They they give up two years of their young lives to knock doors and do a mormon mission. Um, they try to stay morally clean. They live a health code. They raise great kids. You know, that are good friends of your kids. Although you have to be careful with that, too, because sometimes your kids are drawn

Ken McMullen:
They get through the day without coffee. That’s amazing in itself.

Lynn Wilder:
That’s the obvious. Yes, but maybe no without coke or. Or for some power drink. We try not to do the debating or the hard hitting, um, in that spot. Christian apologetics is interesting, right? We get slotted into Christian apologetics, but. But but we’re not comfortable in that arguing space. That’s not bringing anybody to Jesus. All I care about is that Mormons might have the experience that I had in getting to know Jesus, waking up one day and all the colors are different. Like you said, life is changed, right? That’s what we’re after, is to and our ministry is different in that we don’t address history like we don’t do the things that hit against Mormonism that would cause you to leave Mormonism. I just want to present Jesus. Have you come to know who he is? Give your life to him and then I promise you will leave the Mormon Church. Because once the Holy Spirit sets up residence in you, then the conundrums are very clear when you read the word. I also think, you know, with friends, it’s wonderful for Christians to pray with Mormons and for Mormons and ask them if I can pray for you about something. Two reasons. First, Mormons don’t talk to each other typically about things that they’re struggling with because somebody might go into your bishop rat on you.

Lynn Wilder:
You might lose your temple recommend. Then your highest salvation is in question, right? So you hide all of that stuff. If a Christian can be a safe place to come and you can assure them that they can say anything to you, they can confess any sin, it’s a safe place. You’re not going to go anywhere with it. That’s really helpful. And the other thing is, the way that you pray, Mormons will say to a Christian, Wow, sounds like you actually know him. Sounds like you’re talking to a brother. Whereas Maurin’s prayer is very stilted. And so I think those things are helpful. The other thing I tell Christians is when’s the last time you were brought to tears telling a story about Jesus? Mormons are hyper emotionalism. They do this hyper emotionalism thing, right. And their testimonies make them cry. Well, ours should make them us cry. We have truth. Even we as Christians in this day and age tend not to sprinkle our conversation, I think, with ideas about Jesus. Why not? Why don’t we talk about it? Right? Why don’t we tell people what it was like before he knew him? What? What it’s like now. What a difference it’s been.Yeah. So share a success story or two.Well, this one we’re coming out of.This is one of my favorite ones. A lady called me up one day from Utah, and I’m in Florida. This is her story. She said, I’m very strong Mormon. My husband’s very strong Mormon. Our daughter had a Christian friend in high school and started investigating biblical faith. Well, when our daughter hit 18, she begged us to allow her to be baptized as a Christian. We finally gave in and allowed her to do that. She was 18 at 19. This girl was in college, didn’t feel well and had cancer.At age 20. The daughter died when the daughter died.

Lynn Wilder:
The Mormon mother went into the dorm room to clean out the daughter’s things. She found my book among the daughter’s things, unveiling Grace and and the daughter had written in the margins the marked scripture done all of this stuff. So the mom realized this, this this stupid lady is responsible for my daughter leaving Mormonism. I hate this lady. So she said I stirred about and I didn’t even remember ever meeting the girl, but I had signed her book. So apparently she came to hear a speak one time. So the mom was so angry with me. She trashed the daughter’s book. Six months after the death, she calls me up and says, I’ve been wondering why it is my daughter would turn her back on everything she had been.Brought up in and.Consider biblical faith. And she said, I decided in order to know the answer to that, I might have to read you a book. So she calls me, says, Will you send a book? I said, Oh, I’ll do one better. I’ll be in Utah in two days. We are going to speak. Why don’t you come hear us? The mother shows up on a Friday night, actually came and told us who she was. Often they don’t do that right there in the early stages and hiding still. She came the next day to a whole day of conferences. She told me later that she left that conference knowing where Buddhism was and true. She needed to give her life to the Jesus of the Bible like her daughter had done. She went to her daughter’s grave.And went face down and gave her life to Jesus. Powerful, powerful, powerful. There are so many.

Lynn Wilder:
Of those kind of stories. Woman called me up from Southern California one day, she said. I’ve been Mormon all my life. I married this Christian guy. He kept trying to tell me about Grace. I kept letting it in in one ear and out the other. I was Mormon. I was going to be Mormon the rest of my life. There was nothing he could tell me it was going to change my mind, she said. After a few years of marriage, I kind of got bored and I had an affair. I realized afterwards, man, I married the best guy on earth. This was really stupid. So I’m going to go to him and tell him and apologize.And she said, I fell at his feet weeping.And I said.I’m so sorry.Will you ever forgive me?And he said, This is what I’ve.Been trying to tell you all these years. This is Grace. I forgive you. Jesus forgave you. You don’t.Deserve it.I don’t deserve it. This is what Grace is, right? And she said, for.The first time in my life, I got it. And then she became an on fire Christian. Right? So all these stories.Guy called me up maybe four years ago, very LDS from Utah. I don’t know what’s wrong with me. I can’t put the Bible down. My wife says I’ve gone crazy and my Mormon bishop says I need to move out of the house and my wife needs to divorce me. Something has made me crazy. I can’t put here. That’s the one thing that I think when regeneration has happened, people get hungry for the word. Why?Because they’re hungry to know who Jesus is and what it is they’re supposed to do.There with their lives as a follower of Jesus. And I remember thinking in my brain, Oh my gosh, I think this man’s got saved. Gotten saved. I’m supposed to look supernaturally how God does it.And he doesn’t even know.What’s happened to him. Right. And then walking him through, trying to.Keep his marriage together.And finding a church and all of that. Some of our Mormons in transition struggle for a long time. Some of them lose their spouses.Some of them don’t have access to kids or grandkids after.Salvation comes to their household.

Ken McMullen:
Well. Well, I definitely appreciate you and your family, and I’m looking forward to talking to Micah. We don’t have it on the calendar yet, but it’ll be soon. And are you wearing a hat with a visor? I love that.

Lynn Wilder:
I did this on purpose just for you. Oh, thanks. I’m now an outlaw.

Ken McMullen:
I know I should require that. I like it.

Lynn Wilder:
But I love your outlaw picture. And I’m going to send you our favorite outlaw picture so that you can add to your collection.

Ken McMullen:
Yeah, I love that photo as well. It says everything. I’ve said that so many times. I’ve used it on social media at times, but it’s amazing how a picture can be a thousand words because I’ve tried to explain even to my own family sometimes, What do you mean by outlaw? I just send that picture and more people can’t see it right now, but it’s a bunch of it’s hundreds of women in the Arab world wearing the what do you call it, hijab? Yes. Yeah. And there’s one woman with it back. So you see her beautiful face and she’s walking in the complete opposite direction, reading a book, totally counterculture. And and when you become a Christian, I think that you you just become counterculture to the whole the way society goes, you know, And in your cases and others I’ve talked to, it’s so extreme. I have nothing but admiration because fortunately your whole family went that way. But, you know, Micah could have been out on his own and was willing to is heartbreaking. And that would be.

Lynn Wilder:
Uh. But God, because he had a purpose in all this, right? One month before my book came out, one of the top leaders of the Mormon Church was questioning his faith, and his questioning came out on the front page of The New York Times. So God godly.Okay, Now everybody knows there’s an important.Mormon questioning estate. A month later, this book comes out within two days, the entire first printing sold out on Amazon.Why? Because there were that many Mormons out.There questioning their faith and how many.Christians that wanted.To witness to Mormons. So unveiling Grace has been out almost ten years now, and it has sold more every year than the year before. But God, like I said, it’s like a grass roots.Calling the remnant home kind of a Movement. Um, at the very end of my book, this is.The scripture That I end the book with first. Timothy 15 here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. Christ Jesus came.Into the world to save.Sinners of whom I am the worst. For that very reason, I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus, might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in Him and receive eternal life. Now to the King, Eternal.Immortal.Invisible. The only God be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Ken McMullen:
Amen. We’ll leave on that note. Thank you, Lynn.

Lynn Wilder:
Thank you. Great to meet you, Ken.

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